350: "Why don't I feel successful?" - Why success might feel "empty" and how to create a new chapter - ft. Michelle Pollack

ELLA: 00:02

Welcome. You're on air with Ella, where we share simple strategies and tips for living a little better every day. If you're interested in mindset and wellness, or healthy habits and relationships, or hormone health, aging well, and eating well, honestly, if you're into just living better and with more energy, then you're in the right place. Welcome to real, honest, no-fluff conversations about creating a better you. We're not here for perfect. We're here for a little better every day. Let's go. Hey, you're on air with Ella. And today I am joined by Michelle Pollack. Hey, Michelle, how are you? Good. How are you, Ella? I am great. I'm so glad you're here. Michelle, before we jump in, would you please tell us who you are and what you do?

MICHELLE: 00:49

Yes, I am a high performance life and leadership coach and I work largely with women, a few awesome men, but I work with them to really determine what success looks like for them now so that life can feel as good as it looks.

ELLA: 01:09

I gotta ask you a question right off the top. What did success mean to you? Not today, but as you were sort of coming up in the world, maybe in your 20s, maybe in your 30s, Michelle, if somebody said, describe your successful life, what would you have said?

MICHELLE: 01:26

That's the best question because it's really how I ended up here. I mean, when I graduated college, the answer would have been I'm performing on a Broadway stage. And then a few years into my time as a performer in New York City, I was actually cartwheeling across the room at a callback for a national tour. And it was like something just snapped in me. I was like, this isn't what I want anymore. I don't want to go on a national tour. I want to stay in New York City. This is where I want to be." And so then I got on the other side of things and I worked for the producers of Rent and De La Guardia. I brought Avenue Q to Broadway with them. Then I ended up going out to Los Angeles to work in television. My idea of success was constantly, I am going to work my way up in the studio system and I'm going to be at the top one day. It was, I pictured the corner office. And it was so fascinating because throughout my time at CBS, when I worked there, every time I got a promotion, I expected and waited to feel thrilled and excited. And people were like, Oh my God, your job is so sexy. It's so flashy and exciting. And I was miserable. I was determined because there was this part of me that was convinced that if I stopped before I got there, then I was a failure, right? I had completely failed if I gave up, so to speak. Even though every last bone in my body was telling me, this is not right for you anymore. This is not what you want. And I stuck it out until I was there for about five years and I got promoted when I was four months pregnant with my oldest daughter and nobody knew. And then I got laid off when I was eight months pregnant. And I was devastated because, of course, I had been on the way up. I was on my way. But it was truly the best thing that ever happened to me because it really allowed me to pause and take a beat and get really clear about what I wanted and where I wanted to go. And I stayed home with my girls for a couple of years and then I totally reset. And when I reset, so I was in the process of looking into coaching schools and I got a phone call from an old friend who was running Paramount Television at the time and she asked me to come and consult for her on Grease Live when it was on Fox. And I decided to do it. I was like, okay, this is my chance to really see if I don't want this anymore. And I did not want it anymore. It was really clear to me. I loved working on that show. It was incredible. I'm super proud of it. And I also started my coach training at the same time. even now, I evaluate on a consistent basis, even quarterly, what does success look like to me now? Because our wants and needs change, and dependent on whether or not you have other people that are dependent on you, whether it's parents or children or a spouse, it's constant reevaluation of what life looks like and where do my wants and needs fit into that.

ELLA: 04:38

Yeah, I think that while very few people can probably relate literally to your journey, I think that so many people can relate to the net result of that journey. And that is in broader terms, this journey of doing everything right, so to speak, air quotes, perhaps, but doing everything right and working toward the end goal as it was described to you or as you perceived to be the right thing. And it's not all bad. It can be enjoyable to go the route that you're sort of programmed to go for the first couple decades of your adult life. But why, Michelle, do you think that so many women who seem successful, and in one sense, objectively speaking, are, but they realize in their mid-30s or their mid-40s or their early 50s, or whenever, that they want a complete pivot, they want something new for themselves, or that what they thought would make them so happy does not, in fact, bring them the fulfillment that they expected in the first place. Why do you suppose that's so common?

MICHELLE: 05:48

ve a job. Even as recently as: 1974

ELLA: 07:06

Yeah, one of the things that I work with my clients on is starting with identifying what your personal values are. And that's one of those things that can sound really trite, like, you know, workbook page number 11. But my God, nobody had ever asked me that before, before I started to do the work. And so many of us don't actually know. I mean, we don't even know what we like. We don't even know what we enjoy. We don't even know what lights us up sometimes. When it boils down to knowing your personal values, you have to have a think about that. What's so funny is when I did that work, those values have guided so many of my decisions in the past decade. Had I not done that work, had I not asked and answered that question, I would have made completely different decisions. So yes, it might sound like workbook page number 11, But it changed the course of my life. Yeah, no exaggeration. 100%.

MICHELLE: 08:04

And what I find with most people that I work with is that if we dive into five, we really discover their five core values, right? And so usually, two or three, they are really living, you know, if you're looking at a scale of one to 10, one not at all, 10, I'm really living this value in my life. Two or three, they're really living, and two or three, they are totally abandoning or they're being stomped all over in some way. And that's why life feels so unfulfilling. And values aren't something that you can be like, I pick that one. It is inherent to you.

ELLA: 08:45

It's more like they pick you, in a sense. Correct, correct.

MICHELLE: 08:50

And so when you really recognize that there's a value that you've been totally ignoring, or your entire workplace is totally in the opposite direction of that value, and you're miserable at work, well, that's why. It's so true.

ELLA: 09:09

Tell me a story of one of your personal values and how it has impacted you or guided you in some way.

MICHELLE: 09:17

Well, I didn't realize how important freedom was to me. And I thought that acknowledgement was a core value for me, which explains why I was constantly looking for the promotion and that seemed like it was going to make, fill me up. But at the end of the day, when I really looked at my core values, acknowledgement wasn't even on there. Freedom is such a big value to me and it equates to so many things. Financial freedom time freedom you know and when i was working in corporate america there was zero time freedom zero. Yeah, they own you. They own you. And it was miserable. There was a huge reason that I was miserable. Partially also because when you're working in corporate America, and I don't know, a lot of my clients are at a level where they're not feeling this way as much. But I felt like so much of the stuff we did was a waste of time. There were meetings that took an hour that could have been a 10 minute phone call or an email and someone has said, there's a 60 hour work week, so we have to fill it. But really, we could have gotten the work done in half of that. Or someone says, jump, there's a crazy fire to put out. And by the time you're done putting out the fire, nobody even cares about that fire anymore.

ELLA: 10:40

Totally relatable. And you know, what's so funny is my my top four values, I haven't done five, my top four values are freedom, integrity, accountability, and impact. And it's funny that you say that about acknowledgement, because there is such a big difference. And I'm sensing this for you, too. But I don't want to put words in your mouth between acknowledgement and impact. I have left roles before, because I was not having the impact that I wanted to have. So I didn't need kudos, and I didn't need anyone to applaud. No gold stars, didn't need it. Pay me, that makes me happy. No gold stars were required. And when I identified that as one of my top four core values, it really helped me reevaluate what I was doing. And I made big changes because of that. You changed the entire course of your career because of the number one value that you identify, freedom.

MICHELLE: 11:36

It was freedom and then also integrity is one of mine as well. I felt when I looked at the entertainment industry in Hollywood, the industry in and of itself lacked so much integrity. In its DNA. Yes. Well, and that was the thing. When I worked on Grease, I'm looking around at all of the leadership and I'm sitting there going, this is not what leadership with integrity is. I just was like, I'm going to get on the other side of this and one person at a time, I'm going to change this conversation.

ELLA: 12:12

Michelle, you don't have to be employed in corporate America. You don't even have to be employed for this conversation to relate to you. I think that so many people, men and women, go through a journey like this. I mean, it's not called midlife crisis or midlife pivot or second half. There's all this terrible vernacular around this phenomenon, which is that you get the brass ring and you're like, yeah, but what else is there? or you've been doing the thing that you've been trained to do and it doesn't light you up anymore, or you might be working in your own home and you need something more in chapter two for you, let's say. Now, what are the indications that women particularly might want to re-examine where they are, might want to be a bit more intentional about their path forward?

MICHELLE: 13:03

I think for many women, for many human beings, it shows up as a feeling of stuckness. You just feel like there's nowhere to go. It's what you said, that question of, is this all there is? Because it doesn't have to be. You get to choose along the way. Sometimes it's a feeling of guilt that they've chosen a certain path, but usually it's just this feeling of frustration that is really the catalyst for the change.

ELLA: 13:39

You know what I've been really surprised by, Michelle, is the number of people who have physical indications that attribute it to, oh, I have something wrong with my gut, or I've gained eight pounds completely randomly and I don't even know what to attribute that to, or I have headaches, really, really bad headaches. You know, just the list goes on. I can't sleep. Yeah, oh, I should have started with that one. right? So many people have physical manifestations in their body, their body is screaming at them to make a change. And they don't correlate that to their lack of fulfillment in their life, because it's almost like they don't even know that they have a choice. We are so programmed to be doing the things that we're doing, we forget that we have, honestly, a treasure trove of choices, especially those of us who are privileged enough to live in most of the countries who are listening to this show today, where you actually have choices. You don't have to do that job. You don't have to live where you live. I don't mean there aren't consequences to changing these things. I mean, we have an absolute abundance of choices. I don't know about you. I'm barely actioning my personal freedom every day, I still get up and I do the thing that I need to do. And I do it every day. And every day comprises your weeks, your months, your years. That is why doing those things with intention is part of my life's work trying to help other people turn up the dial on their intentionality. But the original point that I was trying to make here was that a lot of people feel this in their body before they understand it in their mind. Have you seen that?

MICHELLE: 15:20

Yes, and I think that a big part of that is that we are trained to operate from the neck up. I mean, I did it for years. I ignored the signals that my body was telling me, even if I wasn't actually sick, the anxiety that would show up in my body. I mean, I would go to work and I was anxious every single day at work. I didn't think that was a signal of something, that my body was trying to tell me something. Hello, you know, and so one of the things that I work on with my clients is actually paying attention to the signals that your body is giving you, not just operating on automatic from the way that your brain tells you to go, but also nobody ever tells us, I mean, we have to, we go to school and we have to learn pre-calculus and biology, but no one ever tells you that the way your brain operates does not mean that everything your brain thinks is the actual truth. So we go through life thinking that we have a thought and that that's actually the 100% truth, and it's not.

ELLA: 16:21

You are so right. Our brains lie to us in our own voice all the time, but you treat it as fact.

MICHELLE: 16:28

100%. So we don't even know to question ourselves. Like, no, not everything in your life that you might want to try is possible. Every single thing you might think about might not be an option, but we stop ourselves before we actually really explore. Instead of going, hey, could I make this work? How could I make this work? We go, well, that can't work because.

ELLA: 16:52

I think that something that you and I have in common is really, really helping people dial in to the true voice. This sounds really meta, but too bad. I mean it. Helping people dial in to that little, quiet, still voice that is deep inside instead of sort of the mind chit-chat that is louder and more prolific and often not true. Michelle, what do you think are the biggest things that get in the way of women really going after what they truly want if they are giving some air time to that still quiet voice?

MICHELLE: 17:32

Part of what stops women is the inability to even know because they've never asked themselves the question. So sitting with themselves and asking questions that they've never asked before to help themselves discover it. When I say it lives in your DNA, I mean it lives in our DNA that we had to take care of somebody else in order to survive. And so we could never ask ourselves what we wanted because if we asked ourselves what we wanted and needed, we were potentially dead. Literally. It sounds so dramatic, but it is proven that that still lives in your DNA and it takes years and years and years and shifting to actually change that. And so part of my life's work is supporting women to change that conversation for themselves. Because it will change it for their daughters and granddaughters and for the generations to come. I believe that doing this work is an act of radical social justice. I really do. Because you're shifting the entire conversation for women.

ELLA: 18:39

Michelle, I think that you're making another good point here too, which is there is a dearth of examples, in relative terms anyway, between women and men. There's a dearth of examples for women as to what success as we would prefer to define it looks like. So all of my examples of success were masculine. All of that. And they were built in systems that were not designed for any kind of balance or 360 degrees of a person or any other nuance really at all. It was like a achieve, achieve, achieve, go home, get back up, achieve some more and be quick about it. What you're doing and what we're discussing is pointing out that the lack of examples makes us go, I'm not sure I can do this because I haven't seen it really be done. Of course, I'm being a little this is a little hyperbolic like there are certainly examples of achievement out there there are certainly examples of success however you define it but i would argue that there's a lot more opportunity for a great many more examples of a feminine vision of success. And I actually even struggle expressing it that way. What I mean is success as we define it. That means that you listening right now get to define it for yourself. And Michelle, you get to define it for yourself and I get to define it for myself and then chase after that. Nobody ever said I could do that. You're right. I learned the Pythagorean theorem, but nobody ever told me that I could create my own vision of what would make me happy and then go chase it. That's right.

MICHELLE: 20:18

And to your point, what women have had a tendency to do is to model themselves after the male models of success that they've seen, which often leaves them abandoning a part of themselves because they have to do it the way they've seen it done before. But it's time to recognize that the only way that it changes is by us taking control of the reins and making those changes. and taking the risks.

ELLA: 20:49

There's a benefit in community when we do that. So what I mean is, yes, my previous definition of success was really all about me. You know, and it was kill or be killed, right? Again, slightly, I'm being slightly dramatic. But my definition of success now involves community. And I don't mean sitting around in a sewing circle. Not that there's anything wrong with that. What I mean is I can't do the things that reward me and fulfill me without a community of women. It is baked in. But the traditional model would have you believe that it's you on your own, isolated. Dr. Kinga Manish has great work around this. I will tag her. You need to go follow her. She talks about this really, really beautifully and has a lot to say about it. But Michelle, one of the other reasons, one of the other elements, I suppose, that gets in the way of women really going after what they truly want is we've made it sound like a solo pursuit. It ain't.

MICHELLE: 21:53

Oh, yes, yes. And we all are so afraid to admit that we have any of these thoughts or feelings on our own that we don't share with other people. And when I get women in groups, it doesn't they can be married, single kids, no kids, an artist in corporate America. It does not matter. They all relate to each other. So I have 20-year-olds relating with 50-year-olds. I have people who are totally C-suite corporate America relating to women that are actresses. And it's fascinating because it's like such a relief for them to be able to hear, oh my God, this happens for you too. Right? Like, I'm not as alone as I think, but we think nobody can know. You know, we don't want anyone to find us out. So we put on this facade and we have our Instagram perfect lives that we show the world. Meanwhile, so many people are experiencing this. And when you just leave a little space for vulnerability, then you get to share in it and support each other in a whole different way.

ELLA: 23:06

Last question for you, Michelle, and that is something that I have a little giggle every time I try to say it. What is your take on when people express a need for more work-life balance? And I'm not giggling at them. I'm giggling at the idea of work-life balance, which I'll explain. But what's your take on the myth of work-life balance? I prejudiced the jury.

MICHELLE: 23:35

There is no such thing. Balance is this elusive thing that women have added to their never-ending to-do list that they're trying to achieve. It's actually caused more stress and more issues than fixing any problem, in my opinion. I think what women really want, to your point, when they're talking about work-life balance, is they want an intentional life. They want to know where the important places are for them to spend their time and they want to be spending their time there. We do not talk about work-life balance. We talk about intention. What's really important to you and what are you, if everything is important, nothing's important. So what are you willing to say no to in order to say yes to the things that are really important?

ELLA: 24:25

Michelle, I think the primary truth that we have both uncovered in our own lives and now spend our time trying to help others work out is that intention is everything. And I say frequently, I don't, I'm not here to judge your choices. Like you do you. And again, I'm not even here to tell you what success should look like for you. Whatever we do from having one glass of wine versus three or from getting in daily movement or not to whatever job you take and how much time you spend in it or not that is a thousand percent up for you to decide but when we do that with intention. even the not doing of some things we know are good for us, when we own it and when we take that action or omit that action with intention, then we are living our best life. So I was on a treadmill for so many years. I can't even look at pictures of my son when he's little without crying almost instantly, and that's not my way. I cannot look at my son's childhood pictures because I was working my face off for 15 years, and I don't remember the things I have pictures of. It absolutely breaks my heart. I can barely talk about it now. It absolutely breaks my heart. I would do it again, and I would do it differently, and I would do it with so much more intention. My only goal out of this conversation today was to tap in to the power of intention so that nobody in my podcast family is sleepwalking through life. Tell me a little bit about what intentional living looks like for you, Michelle.

MICHELLE: 26:09

I mean, to me, intention is all about being in choice. I want you to be clear that no matter what, you're making the choice to do things this way. It's not just happening to you. You know, that goes for everything from, what time am I going to bed at night? To, like you said, am I having a glass of wine or two or none? Even in my business, you know, I look at my life almost orderly to say, what do I need to prioritize right now? What do I want to prioritize right now? And what needs to come out so that otherwise I turn into a crazy person. I'm not pleasant to be around. I'm like a chicken running around with my head cut off. I'm not fun for my family, and I don't like to – I don't feel good. I'm not enjoying my life. I might be getting 50 million things done, but I'm not enjoying any of them, and that's not how I want to live.

ELLA: 27:07

Yesterday – and I'm Mrs. Move Your Body Every Day, okay? In some fashion. I think my step count yesterday was six. I did not move my body yesterday at all. And you know what I did? I did that with intention. 15 years ago, if I had done that, I would have eaten all wonky. I would have beat myself up. I would have said some really ugly things to myself quietly in my head, but it would have happened. And yesterday, I just chose with intention and the power of choice. I was like, my body hurts. I don't have time. I will survive skipping a day of movement. I didn't go for a while. I mean, nothing. My only point is that even when the choices aren't the healthiest, when they are yours to make, that is freedom. And in my opinion, that is success.

MICHELLE: 27:59

I totally agree with you. Another example of being in choice is recognizing when you might be in conflict with somebody and you're going to let it go or you're going to have a conversation. And there's nothing wrong with choosing to let it go, but own that you're letting it go. You're not addressing this with the person. That to me is being intentional. Or you can't let it go, so you're going to choose. But there's always choice. And it's not just usually two choices. There's usually a whole breadth of choices you have and ways to look at a situation to figure out what is going to feel aligned and to go back and bring it full circle. I often go back to my values to help me make those decisions, to say, what is aligned with my values? And it's not always the easy choice. That's the other thing. I mean, one of my favorite sayings that I heard, I can't remember who I heard this from, but it was many years ago. Easy choices, hard life. Hard choices, easy life. And sometimes, especially when you're shifting the way you're going to show up in the world initially, it feels so challenging, but it's for the short term that it's challenging. It will make the long-term picture of your life, big picture of your life, feel so much better.

ELLA: 29:15

Well, I hope we tapped into waking some part of each of us up today. Michelle, any final thoughts today before we tell people how to find you?

MICHELLE: 29:25

Yeah, I think the one thing that I would add is the key to getting intentional on a consistent basis is slowing down. is taking a beat and taking a pause. We tend to run on automatic so much. And that relates directly to noticing what's coming up in your body. So just slowing down a little bit to actually get curious with yourself about what works for you before you just go straight into automatic living life the same way you've always lived it.

ELLA: 29:54

But what does slowing down look like for you specifically? What does that mean for you?

MICHELLE: 29:58

It's literally taking a beat. It's taking a beat before I just automatically go into doing something and getting, asking myself whatever question is aligned for whatever has come up. So it might be pausing and taking a deep breath. And sometimes that's because I've been like an emotion is coming up for me and I need to recenter myself. I am big on responding to something versus reacting to something and letting the emotion be the driver of the reaction. I'll give you a really good small example. I still struggle. I work from home and I have a 13 and a 15 year old, two girls, okay? I struggle so often when they text me randomly, we haven't made a plan. Mom, can you pick me up? Can you bring this one home and can you do this? My whole body tenses up and I have to pause.

ELLA: 30:49

Thank goodness that probably very rarely happens.

MICHELLE: 30:53

Right, never, never. And it's still, every time I have to go stop, you actually get to say yes or no here. I have to remind myself that I have a choice, okay? So I pause, and sometimes I say yes, and sometimes I say no. You know, we have certain parameters in place, and when they're asking me for random things, my mom guilt boils up, and it's like, oh my God, I have to make myself a bit. No, I actually don't. They know I work. And I get to say yes or no. But if I don't pause, then I'll say yes, then I resent them, then I show up and I'm not like, that's not how I want to be. So that's a really little example. In my every single day, when a text comes in from my child with a question of something they want, I have to pause and say, what do I want my answer to be? I get to be in choice here.

ELLA: 31:43

PSA for moms, it's okay to let your children down. Michelle, thank you so much.

MICHELLE: 31:50

Where do you like to be found? You can find me on my website at michellepollock.com. I am over on Instagram.

ELLA: 31:57

We will make it so easy to find you. Michelle, I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, if you enjoyed today's show, please share it with someone you care about. And be sure to check out our new YouTube channel and head to onairella.com for today's show notes. You can also learn about how to work with me there, onairella.com. And I would love to hear from you, so if you DM me on Instagram, I promise I will reply. P.S. All the links you need for us to connect are right here in your podcast app in the description for today's episode. Check them out. Thanks for listening, and thanks for inspiring me. You are, quite simply, awesome.