327: The Healing Power of Microdosing & Psychedelics w/ Neurologist Dr. Maya Shetreat

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:00:00

I've seen people in perimenopause that I think microdosing could not be more valuable. I've just seen such powerful benefit with microdosing, and it's really low risk. So with the right support, I think it's a really wonderful option.

Ella: 00:00:19

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Start now. Let's go. Hey, you're on Air with Ella. And it is my honor to introduce you today to Dr. Maya Sheetreat. And we are delving into a topic, Dr.

Maya, that I have never covered on the air. So I am really, really supremely excited to. To welcome you to On Air with Ella. How are you?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:01:04

I'm doing great. Thank you for having me.

Ella: 00:01:06

Could you please tell us who you are and what you do?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:01:10

I am a conventionally trained adult and pediatric neurologist. I'm also an herbalist, an urban farmer, a ceremonialist. I've studied with indigenous healers for a very long time.

I actually also practice ancient astrology, and I have written two books.

One is called the Dirt Cure, and my most recent book is called the Master Plan Plant Experience the Science, Safety, and Sacred Ceremony of Psychedelics.

Ella: 00:01:38

And that is why we are talking today, Dr. Maya, because we want to talk about the science, the safety, and the sacred ceremony of psychedelics.

But I really have waited to talk about this subject on the air.

It's something I've been curious about for years, and I have not found anyone that I was interested in talking about it because I feel like it's my responsibility to bring someone with authority and experience and, frankly, credentials to this conversation.

So when you and I were connected and I saw your background and that you were traditionally trained md a neurologist, in fact, and now you have such a deep expertise in plant medicine, in psychedelics, in this topic that we're delving into today, I was like, yeah, I can speak about this responsibly and honor the topic while sort of protecting my listeners, if you will. Am I wrong to be that sort of sensitive about how I approach this topic?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:02:32

No, I think it's actually, you know, right now we're in this very strange time because psychedelics were stigmatized For a very long time after what happened in the 50s and 60s, which we can talk about if you want.

But then in the face of that stigma, suddenly there's this enthusiastic movement to gloss over anything that could possibly be negative about psychedelics because there is a lot of amazing data coming out that's showing truly miraculous seeming benefit. But at the same time, of course, we know that there's nothing that's all good, right?

And so it's like we don't need the stigma and we don't need the, you know, rah rah. This is the most wonderful thing in the world.

We need people who are discerning and who have expertise in the topic to be able to talk about the nuance and the complexity and who this is for and who this is not for.

Ella: 00:03:31

I am genuinely relieved to hear you say that because one of my. I asked my listeners for questions and guys, we will get to those. Your questions will be answered on this show with Dr. Maya.

And one of them was, is all plant medicine good?

Because some people I know have bad trips or bad experiences, but then they're almost gaslit into, you know, questioning their own experience or it opened up a door to trauma that then wasn't planned process. It did more harm than good. Also, there is a great deal of talk about, like ayahuasca retreats.

And it started off just the tech bros in Palo Alto doing ayahuasca retreats, right. And acting like they discovered something that's existed for millennia. All right, great. Now it's everywhere. And I'm super curious about it.

But I would not be doing my job if I shared this information and got hundreds of listeners to sign up for an ayahuasca retreat with some schmo. I just. This topic should be treated with respect.

And I also think that the research and some of the things I learned through your book, the Master Plant Experience, like, I was shocked at the efficacy of some of this plant medicine, some of these treatments, some of the conditions that it is apparently able to treat. And that's what I want to talk with you about today. So my first question is really a point of clarification.

Can you kind of overview for us, what are the definitions or the differences between psychedelics, plant medicine, and a term that you've introduced me to, which is master plants. Can you get some definitions on the table for us?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:05:09

Absolutely. Master plants. I'm going to start with master plants.

And master plants are actually an indigenous term for plants that change our consciousness and behavior, and they're called master plants. Because they are literally considered masters. They're teachers that transmit ancient knowledge that help humans navigate being human.

And not all master plants are psychedelic. So master plants include things like the coffee plant and the cacao plant and the tobacco plant.

Plants that have really changed the course of human history and human behavior, right? Think about what people will do for their coffee, the rituals around them. And, you know, same with chocolate, right?

We have these very potent rituals and things that come with it. Or the opium poppy, right? Look what's happened in our society with some of these plants. They're very, very powerful.

They change the course of human history, human behavior and human consciousness. Then there are these psychedelic plants, and those are their own category of master plants.

Not all master plants are psychedelic, but all psychedelic plants are masters. Psychedelics include. And the ones I focus on are the plant version. And when I say plant, master plants is not a botanical term.

So it includes, like fungi, flora and fauna, right? The whole gamut. So mushrooms, you know, the. The magic mushroom, psilocybin mushrooms, ayahuasca, San Pedro peyote, salvia, and on and on and on.

And I go through all of these in my book, and these have a more technical definition in the scientific world, right? Psychedelics are not a. A term that was used by indigenous people, you know, for the thousands of years.

But psychedelics actually have a technical term, the way that they engage with our serotonin receptors, with certain serotonin receptors that cause us to have an altered perception of reality. These psychedelics also can include lsd, Ketamine, mdma, even though technically LSD is a psychedelic.

And MDMA and ketamine, which have a lot of research going on in the psychedelic world, are technically not considered psychedelics. They're slightly different category.

But this is this world of these different kinds of plant and other medicines that alter our consciousness and our perception of reality. And there's a whole host of physiologic and neurologic effects and shifts that happen when we engage with them.

Ella: 00:07:53

Well, I have like this visceral reaction to even. Which I find super interesting to the words, some of the words that you just said, like LSD.

I think of the 70s, even though I was, you know, in utero. I think of Timothy Leary. I think of, like all of the trippiness that was.

I think of illegality, like have these visceral reactions to some of the words that you just used that I find so interesting. Because these are plants. And just like anything, humans can use them for better or for worse. Right?

But I just want to call that out in case anyone that's joining us in this conversation today is tripping over our programming here. And that's not an inherently bad thing. It's. It's rather neutral. I just want to point it out in case anyone's sort of getting stuck there. Dr.

Maya, how do we even differentiate between, quote, doing drugs and using plant medicine or using psychedelics? Like, how do you frame that for people?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:08:54

Well, it's interesting because when I was in South America, the people who lived there, some of the indigenous people, called those of us from the global north junkies. And yes, maybe it had to do with using actual drugs in some way and of it was very triggering.

But also it had to do with the consumptionism, the idea of consuming these sacred medicines that were not. People were not prepared, they were not coming with respect, they were not coming with reciprocity, they were not coming with reverence.

They were kind of just willing to come again and again and again and again. Right. There were these ways that it violated the fundamental sacredness inherent to indigenous communities relationship with these masters.

So to answer your question, how is this a drug versus a medicine? Right. Where does the line kind of divide these two? It really, a lot of it has to do with how are we coming to the experience, right? And.

And that is really the big reason I wrote my book was to give people a context of what's happening in our bodies. Like trauma. Right. And how does trauma actually drive our physical health and mental health conditions that are rampant?

Because our global Norse society doesn't have any great tools to help transform, you know, what we've experienced in our lives. And, you know, by the way, it's normal to experience very various difficult circumstances over the course of life.

Ella: 00:10:45

Right.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:10:45

This is again, like, there's sort of this idea, if we talk about it enough, we can erase trauma. No, unfortunately, the human condition is that difficult things happen.

And where we've changed in modern society, however we want to call it, is we've lost our village. We don't have rituals, we don't have ceremony. We don't have the community support to process and alchemize these kinds of experiences.

And this is what I found so interesting in doing the research for my book is actually a lot of cave drawings, cave art, which I was taught and, you know, fifth grade or whatever it was. You know, these are like what people did with their day before. They had words. They drew it, you know, on the cave wall.

It turns out cave art is usually very deep inside caves in total blackness. That's why we're still discovering all the time these tens of thousands of year old cave paintings.

And they're usually in very dark, low oxygen isolated places where ceremony likely occurred. And in many cases they found pictorial evidence or even DNA evidence of master plants.

Meaning that this was even then, millennia ago, a way maybe not public. Right. It was, it was in these caves.

Ella: 00:12:12

Right.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:12:12

But it was a ritual way of processing life in some, in some manner. Right. So I think it's, it has to do with our attitude and our, our level of reverence.

Ella: 00:12:25

Yeah, I think respect is such an important word in this conversation. Right? The level of respect with which you approach the conversation with approach the plant, the sacred ritual.

It's all super, super interesting to me. I want to get into what we know about how psychedelics work in our bodies and in our brains.

But first I want to just get everybody's attention the way you got mine. I think this was on like page three of your book.

But you said that just one dose of some of these medicines can reverse conditions that are very, very challenging to treat. So some examples are one dose of psilocybin containing mushrooms can transform treatment res, depression, anorexia, ptsd.

You've talked about using one dose of iboga. Am I saying that right? Okay, Iboga to treat drug addiction like heroin and meth addiction.

You talk about two doses of psilocybin helping people stop smoking.

I mean, I just wanted to get some of this concept on the table now before we get into, into it in depth, just so that people understand why this conversation matter so much.

So if you could give us the USA Today version of how psychedelics work in our bodies, in our brains, and then we can get into some of those, those specifics.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:13:47

Yeah, absolutely. So generally speaking, probably the best way to say what's happening is we have cellular memory in our bodies.

And I know we'll go more into that, but our cells kind of remember what's happened to us over the course of our lifetimes. And this can even be from generations before. Right. We know this, this is science. This isn't like a woo woo thing.

And what psychedelics can do is basically allow for us to have rewiring of our whole system, both on a neurological level and on a physical level, on a physiologic level, so that we can create new patterns, whether physiologic or mental or behavioral.

Ella: 00:14:32

Dr. Maya, can you give me an example?

Because what I pick up anecdotally, not from firsthand experience or even really close hand experience, just anecdotally is that people who engage with either macro dosing experiences, like an ayahuasca retreat, like we mentioned, and microdosing experiences, which I'll. I'll have you explain in a moment, they are unlocking trauma, which you said we can't talk our way out of trauma.

I imagine that the verb we're searching for is actually to release it in some way.

And you're saying that cellular memory is holding on to past experiences, to generational trauma, to our own traumatic experiences, and that that has to be released if we truly want to move past it. I don't know if I'm doing a good job here. You tell me in your words.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:15:21

Yeah. We don't realize that our cells, they speak a lot of languages. They understand a lot of languages. They understand physical insults, right?

But they also understand mental, emotional, and spiritual instigators. We think, oh, we should only be having a physical problem if there's a physical insult.

No, it turns out our cells understand lots of languages, but the way that they speak, the. What they communicate is physical symptoms and mental health symptoms. That's kind of how they.

How they transmit and interpret these memories that they're holding. And so what ends up happening is we can end up with these chronic physical or mental health conditions that feel like, well, that's just who I am.

You know, I have this autoimmune condition, or I have gut problems, or I have depression, or I have addiction, when in fact it's actually something embedded in us, but not permanent, does not have to be permanent.

And so the idea is, what these plant medicines can do is they can open up these periods of plasticity that are normally only something we can open during childhood.

So during childhood, we have to learn how to talk and walk and potty train, and we have to learn all the customs and ways of our family, of our school, of our society, of our community, right? There's a lot of learning to do in a very short time.

So we have what's called these critical periods of plasticity where our brains are just thirsty, right?

The problem with those periods, which are otherwise great, is that if something bad happens during those periods, they embed in us in a way that later in life, it's far less likely such an experience would really embed, right? And so what these plant medicines can do is reopen these periods of plasticity temporarily. And if we have the right container, the right support.

And this is a very important part, right?

Because it's the part about being really responsible is having the right support before during, after, every study that you'll see that shows success, all the impressive results always have support, professional support, before, during, and after.

Okay, but when you have the right support, what happens to that cellular memory is less you release it and more you make meaning of it and therefore rewire. So you'll be like, my mother did this thing, which maybe was terrible and maybe it was not actually so terr, but it felt terrible.

Trauma does not have to be like, you know, you. You were actually had violent behavior towards you or something. It can just be an experience that felt terrible to you and you embedded it.

But you can say, oh, you know, many things, many times. What people will experience during a journey would be, oh, I see that my mother loved me even though she did this thing, I have compassion.

And somehow that takes them down a road, that allows them to in some way live more peacefully with what. You can't erase what happened, right? You can't release what happened, but you can alchemize it, make meaning of it. And that's the idea, right?

And then moving forward, that allows you to rewire and recalibrate, and that helps people to actually release very quickly, in some cases, lifelong conditions that have been debilitating, that they've been suffering from.

Ella: 00:19:06

Let's get into some specifics then. So there are three types of dosing that you really talk about.

You talk about macro dosing, you talk about microdosing, and you talk about quantum dosing.

Does it make sense to go through each of those one at a time and sort of explain what that looks like and what plants you tend to think of when you think of each of those types? So let's start with macro dosing and what macro dosing looks like. And anecdotally, how. How people that you work with experience that.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:19:37

Sure. So macrodosing is kind of like what we've been talking about, right? This big trip, this big journey.

This is what most people think of when they hear about psychedelics or they think about, you know, the 60s or something like that. Right.

It's a big experience generally that might last for a certain number of hours where the person's just going to generally be out of commission in some way. Right. And they're not going to be able to go drive their car and go to work and, you know, do life.

They have to kind of be offline for some period of time. And a lot of the studies that have been done looking at the benefits of psychedelics have been with macro dosing.

And there are reasons for that that are actually not Necessarily related to benefit, but just related to the fact that psychedelics in many places are still not legal. Right. And so they can't give them a small dose and say, go out into the world, even though they'd be fine, right. To do that.

So it's very simple to say, we'll prepare you. You come this one day, you're there for five hours or seven hours, we'll support you, and then you leave.

Ella: 00:20:44

So this would be an example of an ayahuasca retreat. What else? What other type of experience would fall into this category?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:20:50

Mushroom journey?

It could be, you know, iboga that you mentioned earlier is a little different because iboga has some real medical risks that certain others don't have.

For iboga, which has been shown now to be very effective for addiction, and it's looking like very effective for traumatic brain injury, like severe concussions and for ptsd. But there are some cardiac risks, risks involved. So if this is being done, you have to have a medical assessment in advance and so on.

So, you know, what I would say is it's important with any of these, in fact, to be cautious, not just, you know, go on the dark web or. Right. Which don't laugh because people do this.

You know, my friend called me in a panic because her son had gotten, you know, ayahuasca on the dark web and literally was dosing himself with ayahuasca in her basement and had no idea.

Ella: 00:21:50

God.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:21:50

You know, and this is sort of like. This is sort of, you know, part of the problem of what's happening now is there's a lot of excitement, but it's also still not very accessible.

People don't know where to go. And so, you know, there's a lot of not great stuff happening that actually can put people at risk.

But in the meantime, right, here's what I'll say about macrodosing. For some people, I think it is absolutely life saving, truly life saving. And I do not use that word lightly.

And I think for a lot of people who have really dysregulated nervous systems or who are very sensitive, they may not need such big, huge experiences in order to have benefit and start to have the kinds of shifts that they might be looking for.

And this is why I think microdosing and quantum dosing are going to be where master plants are going to really shine and really have the biggest benefit in our society overall.

Ella: 00:22:59

Well, let me ask you one question about macrodosing before we move on to the other two. And that is, you're saying that most of this or a lot of it isn't legal.

I'm speaking for the US right now and I don't think, think any of the, I don't think ayahuasca, I don't think lsd, I don't think mushrooms, I don't think any of those macro dosing experiences are legal in the United States, are they?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:23:22

So in the state of Oregon they are now. And in many cities around the United States they are decriminalized. So I could name many, but like Washington, D.C. denver, San Francisco, Oakland.

Ella: 00:23:37

Right.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:23:37

There are many, many more and more and more coming.

Ella: 00:23:41

Right, okay.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:23:42

So decriminalized though is different from legalized is what's happening in Oregon.

Decriminalized means it is the lowest priority for law enforcement, meaning that in small doses, meaning you don't want to become like an ayahuasca center or like dealer, I don't know what we would call it, but you know, if this is just something you're doing for your own ceremony, you know, in a small way that they're not going to like come after you for that. And this is sort of, I think, the bridge to medical access ultimately and possibly more. Right. Possibly what they would call recreational.

Ella: 00:24:23

Okay. And we will definitely talk about how to find a safe experience, slash therapist, slash guide, however we want to frame that.

But let's first talk about microdosing and quantum dosing because these are very, very different than what we of when we think of macro dosing, which is essentially a guided trip. No, I mean, I guess you could do it yourself, but like people do, why would you do that? So let's talk next about microdosing.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:24:49

So microdosing is what we call a sub psychedelic dose and microdosing is a small dose that doesn't alter you to the point that you can't go to work, parent your children, you know, go to the grocery store, et cetera. But it can create shifts. A lot of people actually say it's a little euphoric, you know, or it can lift the mood.

And most people will not do it every day. They might do it a few days in a row and then take a break, then another few days in a row or like every few days.

Ella: 00:25:24

And what are they microdosing? Dr. Maya?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:25:26

They're microdosing in general. Most commonly the psilocybe mushrooms. Right, the magic mushrooms, but not in psychedelic doses.

So although I always say for a first dose, you know, even if it's very low, especially if you don't know the dose. Right. So when I work with people and coach them through microdosing experiences. I always have a sense of the actual dose they're taking.

But some people's microdose might be someone else's, you know, gentle journey. So, you know, the very first time you do want to know and kind of not plan out a whole day of busy things.

But beyond that, the idea of microdosing is you can function, you can function in your life and you're getting the plasticity, you're getting some of the, you know, sense of wonder and sense of lifted mood and other things, but without being altered in that way or kind of risking the bad trip or other kind of experience.

Ella: 00:26:30

So you're micro dosing literally, and you're going on about your business, except for that first time where you're trying to figure out what dosing looks like for you. Now, this, of course, sounds like something that could go very, very wrong. It's left to our own devices.

I mean, are people doing this under the supervision of a practitioner or. Sorry, ideally, I know people are going to do whatever they want to do, but in your opinion, is this ideally done with guidance?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:26:57

It's really important to start an experience with somebody who knows what's what, right, and can guide you and can answer your questions. It can make sure you're doing everything safely.

But in general, the idea is this is something ultimately that people can do without the same level of risk outside of sourcing and no, the. For most people have perfectly fine experiences, but sometimes the shifts take a little bit more unpacking. Right?

It's not like you're suddenly going to see, you know, your whole life flash before you kind of thing like people might have in a bigger journey. It's going to be this sort of more gradual revelation.

But I will say, just from a clinical standpoint, I've seen people who have been mired in, let's say, postpartum depression for months and months and months and really unable to function within just a few doses. I've seen them absolutely shift and feel like life feels worth living again. I mean, I've seen people in perimenopause.

This is another topic, you know, that I think microdosing could not be more valuable for those of us. And I say this specifically to women. I mean, I am a woman and I work a lot with women. And I.

I think there's been so little available to support us through these huge identity shifts. You know, coming into motherhood, leaving that phase of kind of fertility and going into this whatever is next that, you know, I'M currently in.

And, and it's, it's difficult, it's difficult to have these massive shifts in identity that I don't think men experience in the same way physiologically or socially in our society. So I've just seen such powerful benefit with microdosing and, and it's really low risk. So in general.

So with the right support, I think it's a really wonderful option.

Ella: 00:29:13

Can you name a few more conditions? Is not the right word, but I'm going to use it. A few more conditions.

People come to you for microdosing, you see unlocked or you see them get past a barrier. Give us, give us some more examples, if you would.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:29:28

Chronic pain, migraines, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, obsessions, right. Ocd. I mean autoimmunity. I've seen real shifts with people who have autoimmunity.

So you know, right now, I mean in the chronic pain department, people who have trigeminal neuralgia, people who have migraines, people who have cluster headaches, people who have chronic fatigue, all of these kinds of conditions are now being looked at with microdosing. Dementia is now on the table as a possible condition that benefits from microdosing.

So it's not going to be the answer to every single problem, but I would say it opens these portals right, where there's potential to experience real shifts and usually for conditions that we really just don't have treatments for in western medicine.

Ella: 00:30:27

Yeah, this is so mind blowing to me. How does plant medicine address chronic pain? Why would that even work?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:30:34

There are a lot of possible answers to that and I'm kind of thinking, what's the best way to say it? Let's just say that a big part of pain, especially chronic pain, is related to perception.

And pain is also going back to what I said before, that the cell, the cells understand a lot of languages, mentally, emotional, spiritual, but they don't always communicate the problem mentally, emotionally, spiritually. We experience it physically like pain, but we can be in emotional and spiritual pain.

That does not make our physical pain not real, it's just the way our cells are translating it.

So this is working literally by shifting our, our cellular memory, our, our plasticity and recalibrating, right, rewiring things so that we don't ex, we don't have to experience the pain because we've processed in a different way. And I mean also just from a physiologic standpoint, it's anti inflammatory. There are, there are powerful anti inflammatory benefits through.

One of the major compounds in many psychedelics is called DMT. It turns out that DMT activates this receptor called the sigma 1R.

This is not the USA Today version, but it is the sigma 1R receptor that actually is very important for mitochondrial health and actually is related to many, many chronic diseases. So what we're seeing is dmt, which is in Ayahuasca, is it? Right.

It's in many of these plant medicines, actually activates something that essentially it acts as an indirect antioxidant in a very powerful way.

Ella: 00:32:17

Okay, so I'm somebody. Let's say, hypothetically speaking, I'm somebody who has had some trauma, but no big capital T trauma.

You know, no one's making a Dateline special about my childhood, but I do feel stuck. I would like to sort of unlock my next level. Am I. Should I be looking at macrodosing? Should I be looking at microdosing?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:32:40

Well, so I think it depends, but I would tend to start with microdosing. Unless somebody, you know, there are people who feel really drawn. And I believe that these plants actually do.

The relationship begins as soon as you start learning about them. Right. And I saw this with microdosing is people would reach out, book a microdosing coaching session with me before they ever tried it.

And they would. We'd get on our. Our session, and they would say, I've already started having these huge shifts.

And if you listen to their shifts, they'd never consumed a thing. It was as if they were already microdosing, but it was as if the relationship had already begun. Because.

And this is what indigenous people will say, and my teachers would say is this is a relationship between the spirit of the plant and the spirit of the person. It's actually has nothing to do with the compounds. Right.

And this is why things like microdosing, I think, and quantum dosing, which a lot of people say, oh, that's just, you know, the only thing that will work is these big experiences. No, it's. It's actually because what you're doing is you're cultivating a relationship. You're cultivating intimacy with this master.

Ella: 00:33:52

I sort of get that I'm not fully there, but I sort of get that in the sense that anytime I've wanted personally to create change in my life, the moment I started being aware of that and then seeking insight, I started to experience like that is the beginning of the shift. So I sort of understand it at that level. But on a very practical level, I'm now someone with capital T trauma. Right.

I have high anxiety, or maybe I have ptsd.

Is your Answer the same, like, just start immersing yourself in the learnings, or should I be specifically looking into a macro or a micro experience?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:34:29

Well, so I think this is where having someone to consult about this is really important.

And, you know, this is why I actually started training people in a psychedelic informed practitioner program is because I don't think everybody needs to learn how to be a guide. Right. And take people through the journey. I mean. And that's fine. I'm training people to do that if they want to.

But what I'm more interested in, honestly, is that your doctor, your physical therapist, your psychologist, right.

Your social worker, your pastor will be able to give you informed advice that's responsible and right for you as an individual, because this is truly individual. Some people have gone through capital T trauma, are.

Have absolutely blown out nervous systems, and they need a really significant amount of support to build up to. Maybe they do need a big experience, but maybe not right away.

Maybe they need to work up to that with quantum dosing or with micro dosing or with some other kind of somatic therapies that will calm and balance their nervous system so they can get to a point where they can really benefit from that big experience that might be absolutely transformative. Does that make sense?

Ella: 00:35:50

This makes so much sense. We're not talking about starting with the solution.

We're talking about starting with a teacher, a guide, someone who has some insight here and learnings, and that. That makes a great deal of sense to me. I know we need to get the definition and the experience of quantum dosing on the table.

So go ahead and talk to about that, Dr. Maya, before I go on with these questions.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:36:12

Sure. So quantum dosing is a vibrational transmission, basically, of the plant.

And this is a little bit like, not typical for people in the modern medicine model to think about, although we do know about things like homeopathy and flower essences, but in indigenous traditions. So anyone who's, let's say, been in an ayahuasca ceremony, they'll have experienced something called icaros.

And the icaros are songs sung by the ayahuasca, the person who's running the ceremony. And it's not their own songs. It's actually something that they were given. Okay. By the plant during their training with the plant.

And those songs are considered to be as potent as drinking the medicine itself. It's considered to be, like, equal in potency. And some ayahuascaros do not even give the brew to the people that come for healing.

They themselves drink a Little bit of the brew and they sing. The Ikaros and the Icarus will make you feel like you want to vomit. They'll make you feel like you want to cry and cry and cry.

They'll make you feel like you're calming down and coming back into your body. Like, they're very, very potent.

So what we did was actually created vibrational dose of the ayahuasca, of the San Pedro cactus, and of the psilocybe mushrooms. And they don't contain compounds, they don't contain the material, but they're made ceremonially. We call them ceremony in a bottle.

And that's why I said to you before that I do think that there's value for someone who's had trauma, capital T, little T, or none to go and look at the plants and look, read about them a little bit, because you will start to feel something. This sort of quantum experience.

And, you know, that's a whole different topic, but we're learning actually in mainstream science how powerful it can be.

Ella: 00:38:10

Okay, and you. You sell those, right? Like, I just want people to know what is available. So we'll. We'll link to all of that.

But you actually began a business in quantum dosing, is that correct? Am I saying that correctly?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:38:24

Well, so, yeah, I mean, what I do is I grow a lot of master plants. Not for my own consumption, actually, but that's part of my service to the plants, right? We talked about reciprocity.

So I tend the plants, and they kind of kick my butt. Right? These are, again, because, as we said, it's not just about drinking the compounds. Like, I learn a lot from them.

And there was a point in time where I got this very strong message from them, which was, why do people think they need to consume us in order to experience our medicine? Show them another way. This was many years ago, and I was floored because I was, you know, a neurologist, and I'm like, what is.

What are you talking about? Like, you can't have anything cons, you know, to be consumed. But somehow, right?

So it took me a long time of kind of playing with the idea and eventually, you know, working with an incredible scientist. And.

And anyway, we created these tonics, these vibrational tonics, which are totally legal, are totally safe for people who are sober, for people who are pregnant, for people who are sensitive, right? And I am a very sensitive person. I have engaged with bigger doses over the years, but really, I don't need that.

Quantum dosing has been really incredible for a lot of people who want to engage, but are not necessarily looking for the big experience or who are working their way up or processing a big experience.

Ella: 00:39:52

Okay.

If you don't mind, I want to just go a little bit sort of lightning roundish with just a few questions, a few more questions that people had just so that we can get them all on the table. And I'm going to encourage anyone who wants a deep dive into this to land on your book. I mean, it's just, it's.

It's a great place to start this conversation, honestly, to start this journey. Journey, really? Okay. Some lightning round. We talked about this at the top. Is all plant medicine inherently good? Because it.

And we already know the answer to that, right? No, all generalizations are false. So can you talk to us a little bit about how do you know? How do you protect yourself?

How do you set yourself up for success here? Dr. Maya?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:40:34

Yeah. So even indigenous people that I've learned with will say, master plants are neither good nor bad. They're powerful. Right.

So this is a very important thing to know that. Right.

That even people who are indigenous who have been the custodians of this medicine for a very long time do not automatically say, this is going to be good. So what does that mean? It means be educated. It means either, right, read my book or a really good book.

It means find a good mentor or guide or teacher. And I, in my book, actually talk about how to do that.

Because you want to make sure that any red flags that come up, listen to the red flags, do not gaslight yourself. Do not say, oh, but this person's so important, even if the person was me, don't ever ignore those, you know, those. Those red flags.

So that's really, really important. Educating yourself, listening and finding a really good guide or mentor, and then just making sure you're supported before, during, and after. Right.

Remember that these open, these periods of plasticity. The most important thing is that you don't re. Traumatize yourself.

So putting yourself in the hands of someone who you feel is supportive and neutral and respectful of your wishes enough to be able to take you through that if you are going through a big experience in particular. Right. That's. That's where it's profoundly important. That's really what it comes down to.

Ella: 00:42:06

Can you explore plant medicine micro, macro or quantum dosing, if you have issues with addiction, such as alcohol addiction, I.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:42:13

Do think it's individual.

But we know that it is possible for these plant medicines to transform addiction for people, meaning if they have addiction to nicotine, if they have addiction to alcohol, if they have addiction to heroin. I mean, the gamut. Right, the gamut to opioids, that they can be helpful again with the right support.

I've spoken with people who experience addiction and who are now sober and they've explored with themselves, is this a good idea?

And what they've said is, I need to avoid something that offers me like a high, because any way that I feel like I'm escaping or being altered could trigger my addictive behaviors again. So this is why I say it's really individual. But this is why something like quantum dosing is a great place to start.

Because it's alcohol free on purpose, because of sobriety. Right. So the answer is maybe. And it's individual, and it's something that you should be talking about with, you know, your support people.

Ella: 00:43:17

Okay. Is there any type of person or person with any type of circumstance that should not be delving into plant medicine as an individual?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:43:28

So right now, the main category of people that are most at risk are people who have psychosis of some kind or a family history of psychosis, even if they themselves have not had it. This does not mean that they absolutely can't engage, but especially in a large dose, I'd be very cautious.

There are some physical conditions that make people a little more at risk depending on the plant medicine, but for the most part, it's fairly safe for most people. Again, this is with the caveat that having professional support before, during, and after is an important part of the conversation.

Ella: 00:44:13

Okay, last topical question here.

This still feels fringe to a great number of people, even though science is catching up and they're making it possible, meaning legal, to start delving into the research with plant medicine again, which is really, really exciting because there's so much here. For those people who still feel like this is a fringe issue. Dr.

Maya, can you tell me a story of a person or persons you've seen that are just living a relatively normal life, so to speak, whatever the hell that means, but they're not living on the fringe. You know, they're not following the dead around.

And like, can you give us a story of someone you can think of who started to go on a plant medicine journey and it changed their life?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:44:59

I mean, the vast majority of people I encounter are not, like, doing, you know, they're not at raves. They're not, you know, following the dead or fish or whatever.

Most of the people that I encounter are a lot of medical professionals and healthcare professionals of all kinds. Right. But people like you and me are coming because we're all walking around with our stories that are limiting, right, at a minimum.

And sometimes those stories rise to the level of trauma and keeping us stuck or keeping us sick or keeping us, us sad.

And so many of us, even very high functioning people, you know, who have podcasts or who, you know, work in hospitals or who run companies are, are, are suffering on the inside.

And so people you would never imagine are coming just realizing that they need something to change in their lives because they are suffering underneath the surface and on the outside.

You know, these are people that look like you and me that everybody sees and knows and thinks, oh, wow, they're so successful, they're so great, they're so happy in many cases, right? It's not somebody always that's going to be some kind of fringe or super out there person or even a person who looks like they're falling apart.

Yes, sometimes. But a lot of us fall apart privately. So.

And I can say that as a doctor and as, you know, someone who does spiritual work with people that I, I, I see that part and other people don't always see that part.

So I've seen absolute transformation, even on people who have interviewed me for their podcast, you know, people who are very well known, who have said on their podcast, like, I was in a terrible place. I never thought I would do something like that. I never thought I would need something like that. And it totally changed the trajectory of my life.

And I can say for my own self as a neurologist. And I was, you know, at that time, the mom of three small children.

I went to Ecuador not in any way intending to be part of any plant medicine ceremony. I was going to learn about indigenous healing, which is much broader than just master plants.

It was kind of sprung on me, to be honest, and I was not so pleased about it. I was very reluctant, if you want to know. But I myself actually, it really changed the trajectory of my entire life.

You know, a lot of people think I'm very brave and I'm very, you know, open minded and all of these things.

I mean, I'm not saying that all of that came from engaging with master plants, but being able to walk the walk that I've been doing in my life, allowing me as a neurologist to talk about these kinds of topics like, you know, spirituality and meaning making and master plants and how we engage with trauma and suffering, that's something that I really would attribute to really one experience that I had with San Pedro over 10 years ago.

And by the way, I've never done a big experience again with San Pedro because for me, I'm still unpacking 10 years later that experience and it feels to me like it would be disrespectful and greedy to go back again when I still very much unpacking that Incredible.

Ella: 00:48:25

Okay, I know people are going to want to delve in more. I'll put together very robust show notes. I'll make it very easy to link to your book, Dr. Maya, but where do you like to be found?

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:48:36

The best place to find everything I'm doing is on my website, which is drmya.com D R M A Y A I have a program just for laypeople who just want to know more on psychedelics. I have a psychedelic informed practitioner training, which is a much bigger program. I have Quantum drops there. I have my book there.

And then, you know, all my other work, I have a decertification program where I work with people and kind of engaging and changing their lives. So there's a whole gamut of things they can find there. And then I'm pretty active also on Instagram, especially in my Instagram stories.

Ella: 00:49:12

Okay. Dr. Amaya, thank you so much.

Dr. Maya Shetreat: 00:49:15

It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Ella: 00:49:18

Okay. I hope you enjoyed today's show and got something out of it that you can use.

If you did and you want to learn more, just head over to onairella.com where I put up links to all of the stuff that you did not need to write down today because I got you covered. There's no with. It's just on airela.com thanks for listening. Thanks for sharing the show and thanks for inspiring me. You are quite simply awesome.