405: Reduce Alcohol Consumption by 80%?! Manage binge drinking (& eating!) - Colleen Kachmann

Colleen: 00:00:00

Where I was, how much I was drinking. A period of sobriety was the easier route. But this story that I adopted that I was never going to drink again, that's just a story.

Addiction is primarily a belief state. And so this idea that you can't control yourself is not accurate. It's not even your relationship with alcohol that needs to change.

It's your relationship with yourself.

ELLA: 00:00:23

Are you hugely controversial in this arena? Like, do you get a bunch of flack?

Colleen: 00:00:28

Yeah, I get my ass handed to me a lot.

ELLA: 00:00:34

Welcome, you're on air with Ella, where we share simple strategies and tips for living a little better every day.

If you're interested in mindset and wellness, or healthy habits and relationships, or hormone health, aging well and eating well, honestly, if you're into just living better and with more energy, then you're in the right place. Welcome to Real Honest, no fluff conversations about creating a better you. We're not here for perfect. We're here for a little better every day.

Let's go. Hey, you're on air with Ella. And today I am joined by Colleen Kachmann. Hey, Colleen, how are you?

Colleen: 00:01:11

I'm so good. Ella, it's so good to see you again today.

ELLA: 00:01:13

I know. I'm pumped for this conversation. I think it's very timely.

We are going to talk about a number of subjects, but before we do, could you please tell us who you are and what you do well?

Colleen: 00:01:24

I'm Colleen Kachmann and I am an intuitive drinking coach.

I teach mindful drinking to high achieving professional women who want to manifest a healthy relationship with alcohol and reduce their alcohol consumption by 80% without doing that period of sobriety or on and off the wagon, start and stop with the quitting. Like, let's just solve the real problem.

We go to the root cause of alcohol use disorder and fix that so that you don't ever have to worry about that again.

ELLA: 00:01:54

Okay. So many people just went, what? Because we hear, we hear a couple of messages, Colleen. We hear alcohol is terrible.

It's disgusting, it's incredibly toxic. By the way, alcohol is toxic, okay? It is a toxin. But here's the point. We are told that red wine's great for you or drinking in moderation is fine.

We're also told it will kill you. We're also told that if you have, if you want to be a peak performer, alcohol is off the table, which, by the way, is off. Arguably true.

If you want to be a peak performer elite athlete, for example, I mean, I wouldn't be drinking personally, right? But I'm Not. I'm just a woman who does triathlon and likes a glass of wine.

Colleen, tell me how you have the audacity to tell us that we can moderate our alcohol consumption. In all seriousness, why?

Colleen: 00:02:43

Well, I did the route to sobriety. I was a heavy daily drinker.

I was putting back half a fifth of vodka a day while teaching hot power yoga, running marathons, raising seven kids, doing all the things for all the people, checking all the boxes. And the only way I could keep going because I didn't know how to take care of myself.

I didn't even know I had needs, much less that they were important, was to pour that drink every single night. And then the habit took over. My tolerance grew, and I became more and more dependent, not realizing alcohol is addictive to everyone.

And in our culture, we are told that there's a difference between normal drinkers and alcoholics. And if you're a normal drinker, cheers. Have fun.

And I had no idea that relying on alcohol more and more every day and then starting to feel ashamed because at some point you realize you're drinking more than everybody else and not everybody's killing a bottle of wine on a Monday night, you start feeling shame. And in our culture, because the answer, if you're an alcoholic is to go directly to aa, do not pass.

Go get a sponsor, pick up a copy of the Big Book, start apologizing to everybody that you've ever offended in your whole entire life. And for the rest of your life, let everybody worry about your drinking, because you're not supposed to be drinking, so you just hand away your power.

So, of course, women who are used to being able to get results through discipline and willpower and grit will hold on as long as they can to their secret because they want to keep trying to fix it on their own, not realizing that once you believe your drinking is a problem, you are actually caught in a downward spot spiral.

ELLA: 00:04:20

Once you believe your drinking is a problem, you're caught in a downward spiral. What if you are in a downward spiral because your drinking's a problem?

Colleen: 00:04:29

Well, they go hand in hand. But at some point, what happens with alcohol use disorder? Let's define that.

Specifically, it means that you drink more than you think you should drink. It is a DSM 5 diagnosis that has nothing to do with how much or how often you drink.

It is the belief that you drink more than you should, and for some reason, it's hard for you to correct your behavior.

ELLA: 00:04:51

Oh, that's so interesting. That's new information for me. Were were you an alcoholic, Colleen, by.

Colleen: 00:04:58

All clinical definitions, yes, I was. I drank every single day for 15 years. Didn't even miss if I had the flu, because then I could get away with it because Mom's slurring.

Nah, she's just gotten cold medicine.

ELLA: 00:05:09

Well, at the risk of being utterly offensive, if I had seven kids, you can be damn sure I'd have a fifth of vodka.

Colleen: 00:05:15

There was a lot of. There was a lot going on there, Ella, for sure.

ELLA: 00:05:18

Yeah, we can unpack that later. But in all seriousness, Colleen, this is interesting, because alcoholism is a diagnosis.

Colleen: 00:05:27

No, alcoholism, the word is a colloquialism that we use to describe someone who is suffering from an alcohol addiction. But in the DSM 5 and in the recovery and treatment, those people that are on the front edge, we don't classify people as the problem anymore.

Someone can be suffering from a substance use disorder, but when you label yourself as an alcoholic, you actually have much higher, like, almost 10 times higher rates of binge drinking in the future, even if you're completely sober. So going into the sober culture that defines the all or nothing sobriety is just the nothing in the all or nothing cycle.

And they teach you how to speak about your whole entire life, restore your whole life through the lens that you are an alcoholic. There are people that are suffering from alcohol use disorder, and alcoholism is just kind of a general term.

I don't mind being somebody saying that I had it, but when you look at it from the dis. The disease framework, that somehow it's a chronic disease, that even if you're sober, you still have, it doesn't make any sense. Like, if.

How can you be addicted to alcohol if you haven't had a drink in years?

ELLA: 00:06:37

I actually haven't earned the right to have an opinion here.

It's not my experience, and it's not my call to make, but I believe the way that we identify ourselves really matters in whatever life we're trying to build for ourselves.

So I personally, in my own little head, have always struggled with that approach where you identify a certain way for the rest of your life, even once you've changed the habit. And I understand logically where that comes from.

I get the rationale, if you will, but to me, it's so much more powerful to identify as the person you want to be and the identity that you're creating, rather than the thorn in your side that you have actually removed.

Colleen: 00:07:19

Right. And you are a big fan of neuroplasticity on this show. What the science shows is that someone who has broken an addiction six months to one year.

The gray matter in their prefrontal cortex is denser in the self regulation department.

So this idea that you haven't had a drink for years and if you have one drink, you're going to be on a binge and you know, go on a bender that lasts for days, that is a self fulfilling prophecy. And they are teaching you to avoid alcohol completely using fear and shame.

There's something wrong with you, and if you ever drink again, you're going to destroy your life and everybody you love and that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

ELLA: 00:07:57

So I'm a big fan of do what works for you. Like my mantra on this show and in life when it comes to others is do what works for you.

If it works for you to never drink again, then by God, you do you.

But I suspect there's a very large bit of the population, at least in my podcast family, who would like to drink again and they want to break that disordered relationship that they have with alcohol in the same way, for the record, that I had to break a disordered relationship with food, it's not helpful for me to call it an addiction. It's not helpful for me now, years later, to identify as a person with a problem with food. I'm not. I'm a completely different person.

So I can understand this all for myself. But what I don't understand is if you're addicted to a chemical substance, and that in this case is alcohol, how can you manage your drinking to.

I think you said 80%. You help women reduce alcohol consumption to 80%.

Colleen: 00:08:57

Yeah.

ELLA: 00:08:58

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Colleen: 00:09:49

Well, the science shows that the most significant factor in a person's recovery is that they get to choose. And I can tell you that where I was, how much I was drinking, a period of sobriety was the Easier route.

But this story that I adopted, that I was never going to drink again, that's just a story. I mean, I was fully committed. I had the sober as T shirts. I'm running a sobriety program. I am all in. But life is long.

And I was using that story to prevent my.

I was making the decision for all of my future selves that she's never smart enough to change or to grow or to make a different decision should she come into new information, which I did.

But I realized at one point, the only thing holding me back from having a glass of wine with my friends was because I would think that I would lose control when I drank. And to speak to your question about addiction, Addiction is primarily a belief state. Yes, your dopamine baseline levels are low.

Your cortisol levels are high. It is harder for you to interrupt the urges that come up, but it is not impossible. Loss of control is a myth. There's no such thing.

People who have hardcore meth addictions in studies have been shown that they are able to abstain from their substance when they are properly motivated. And so this idea that you can't control yourself is not accurate. It's a belief. It's not actual control.

Like, put your both hands in your pockets, you're controlling yourself. It is only the belief that this is going to be hard. I can't sustain this. There's a lot of work that needs to be done.

But where I'm going to circle back to is it's not even your relationship with alcohol that needs to change. It's your relationship with yourself.

ELLA: 00:11:33

Are you hugely controversial in this arena? Like, do you get a bunch of flack?

Colleen: 00:11:38

Yeah, I thought, what do you. What they say you can only rise to the level of haters you can tolerate. And yeah, I get my ass handed to me a lot.

ELLA: 00:11:47

Yeah. And here's my philosophy, just for the people who are. I have. I have such a good community here.

And they tend to be capable of holding two thoughts in their head at the same time. Right. Like, we try, but. And two things can be true at once.

I, I, again, I fully believe that abstinence is the right route for the people who believe that abstinence is the right route for them. That is their belief, and it serves them. And I also believe that they're abstainers and moderators with different things in our life.

And then some people probably are all or nothing all the time. I don't know.

But there's probably a really sensitive faction of the population who's really struggling with this right now, and they want to think they can cut back their drinking. Colleen. And they're like, I'll do this. I can do this myself. Colleen is giving me permission to just manage my alcohol better.

And it could actually harm them to think that they've got this, because if they just reduce it, they'll do better tomorrow. They'll do better tomorrow, and they think they can handle it on their own. What do you say to the people who are really in it right now?

Where can they start so that they can eventually possibly have an existence like the one you're describing?

Colleen: 00:12:59

Well, I guess the first thing to understand is that this is a thinking problem, not a drinking problem. And you can't think your way out of a thinking problem.

And so if you are on the struggle bus where you are repeating the same thing over and over, then it's not that you can't do it. It's that you need to get yourself some more support or some more help. The first thing I do with my clients is we talk about setting positive goals.

Let me explain the difference between a positive goal and a negative goal. A negative goal is I want to drink less or I don't want to drink tonight. You are hoping for the absence of a behavior.

You cannot visualize yourself not drinking or drinking less so hard. So what has to happen is, what would cause me to drink less? What would cause me to be able to not drink tonight at all?

So it is not that you're drinking less. It is you are doing more of the things that bring you into a relaxed and calm state.

You are doing more things that bring you joy, and you are just expanding your habits so that it's kind of like two ships passing in the night.

With my clients, their drinking goes down as their curiosity and capacity to handle their stress, to take more time for themselves throughout the day. Because here's the thing, at least about my clients, the reason they drink, because they have no off switch. The truth is alcohol is their off switch.

They open their eyes, their feet hit the ground, and it is go time. Their brain is running three steps, three minutes, three days ahead of them at all times.

And then you wonder why you pour alcohol on that in the evening and you're three drinks ahead of yourself. You're already worrying about the next drink before you finish the first drink.

And so it is this whole way of being that has to change and understanding that if you felt powerful and confident about yourself and in your life, you would drink like someone who feels that way. Instead, you're sliding into happy hour like a hot mess who hasn't taken a breath all day. And then wondering why you start drinking.

And the hand to mouth thing goes. Because your brain is disconnected from your body, there's a hundred percent chance that your body does not actually enjoy an entire bottle of wine.

You're trying to think with mental math. How much can I drink? How much did I drink last night? How much is everybody drinking around me? How much can I get away with?

You're not connected to the felt experience. That's why I teach intuitive drinking.

Because when you are synced up mind and body, when you have a gentle little buzz and someone says, would you like more? Your mouth says, no, I'm good, thank you very much. There's no thought or willpower because you are drinking from a place and using everything.

Your connection with other people and conversation. It's not just alcohol, it's food. It's everything.

But when you are tuned into your body and not living in your head, overthinking yourself into the ground, that is what allows you to then drink in a way that gives you pleasure. Instead of problems, how do you tell.

ELLA: 00:16:04

People, and I mean specific actions or pattern interrupt. How do you coach people to stop themselves in their tracks? For example, let's say we've had a week, right?

And it is Friday night, and we could not be happier, right? Because Friday night, that's your get out of jail free card.

You can drink on Friday and you're gonna get a lot less judgment and shame than if it's a Monday at 5:30.

Colleen: 00:16:28

True story.

ELLA: 00:16:29

So one drink, Anyone in a healthy state of mind can cruise on one drink and have a lovely evening or zero drinks, obviously.

But if your habit is the third, the fourth, doing that mental math that you do when you're in addiction or you're in habit, right, where you're just doing the math, like, what can I get away with here? What will people notice? What? Like just the one more. I'll do better tomorrow. I'll make up for it. How can they interrupt that moment?

Colleen, if it's possible, like we're not we. I don't. I want to pedal the truth here.

Colleen: 00:17:00

Yeah, I do too.

ELLA: 00:17:01

Can you stop yourself? Friday night at 6:01 maybe.

Colleen: 00:17:05

Continuing to send yourself into the same situation and expect different results is not a plan. It begins with planning through the week, you know, so no, the time to start. This is not after a stressful week. Friday night, 6:30.

All right, here I go. I mean, that's what you do every Single week. That does not work.

So there's so much work that has to be done in terms of regulating your nervous system throughout the day, setting realistic expectations.

So for example, if someone normally drinks a whole bottle of wine, they open the bottle, they drink the whole thing themselves, expecting them to go from one whole bottle of wine down to one glass or no glasses. That's a really big gap. But what if you could move it to three glasses and then celebrate the wins and notice how actually that did feel good.

It felt good to stop reinforcing what, how you want to feel at the end of the evening. Setting realistic expectations for change is part of the thing that's so important. I follow the iterative mindset with Dr.

Kyra Bobinette and she teaches how the motivation to do what we want the kill switch for that is the perception of failure. So you have to set yourself up for goals you can actually achieve and also goals that you want to achieve.

You don't set goals for how much you're going to drink tonight. You set goals. How do you want to feel before the party, during the party, what are you going to the party for? What do you want to accomplish?

How do you want to feel at the end of the party? What is your tomorrow self say about how much you're drinking tonight?

And so really understanding that your brain will help you get what you want when you know what you want. Saying I want to not drink so much that that's never going to work out.

So you have to have tools that allow you to set goals that your brain can actually help you achieve. And then you have to set realistic expectations so that you don't expect to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

And once you nail it, it's never going to be a problem again.

ELLA: 00:19:03

You said yourself, you said you struggled to get better at drinking until you realized that your real problem was your, your thinking. And this ties so much into something we just spent a lot of time talking about Colleen here and that is identity based habits.

And so I just want to tie that back to what you're pointing out. You can't build a negative habit. I don't mean you can't build bad habits. You can, I mean you can't build inverse habits of who you don't want to be.

You create new habits and new patterns for yourself and new activities and thoughts and behaviors for yourself by saying who you want to be. The other element that I'll add, and again, I can only relate to this when it comes to a disordered relationship with Food.

And what I realized for me is deprivation leads to, to binge. There is no binge without deprivation. I think that's in line with a lot of what you're espousing here.

Because when you say, no, never, never again, it creates a vacuum. Nature, she hates a vacuum. And it's like sitting there the whole time. And so I just want to marry all of those concepts up together.

And I think that so much of what you're saying, it's just sort of occurring to me is what we've been talking about recently where you say, who do you want to be? What kind of day do you want to have tomorrow? What kind of experience do you want to have tonight? Who do you want to be?

Because if I show up and I say, listen, I am a strong, powerful, vibrant woman who's going to enjoy herself and get up tomorrow and have a very productive day, I'm going to treat my body differently and I'm going to use the drinking hand very differently than somebody else who walks in with a different mindset. Is that fair?

Colleen: 00:20:47

It's so fair. And I will tell you that who you want to be, you are already her.

The key to this, the step, the pathway out of alcohol use disorder is paved with evidence of progress, evidence that you already are her. And you have to nurture those little habits and thought habits. You have to, you have to notice evidence that you are changing.

And that's the problem with alcohol use disorder. That's the negative feedback loop, is the more you say, I don't want to drink, drink, and this is so hard and I can't do it.

You just end up stuck and then it stresses you out and blows your emotional circuit breakers and then you end up relaxing yourself with alcohol and going right back into the old habit. It is not that drinking less is hard. It is that doing anything different requires your attention and focus.

So you have to have a portion of your bandwidth committed to the change process. You cannot run on to all cylinders constantly and expect to see significant changes because you don't have the bandwidth to focus and pay attention.

And the most important thing to do with the identity based change is to realize you already are her and stop with the carrot on the stick that you're never going to get that I'll feel better about myself as soon as I have proven that I drink perfectly at all times in front of all people and always get everything right. Because you're setting yourself up for failure. You are going to make a mistake again. And in the moment that you make a Mistake.

That's when the cycle either resets with shame or you end up making headway because you have learned from what went wrong or where you fell short in your self care.

ELLA: 00:22:29

No matter your coping mechanism. Maybe you're overspending, maybe you're under eating, maybe you're over criticizing, maybe you're over drinking or overeating.

Whatever your coping mechanism is. How do you stop the shame spiral when you screw up? And how do you counsel women to manage ourselves in that cycle?

Colleen: 00:22:53

All right, so you become the version of you who is taking care of the person who screwed up.

ELLA: 00:22:59

Say that again.

Colleen: 00:23:00

You become the version of you who is taking care of the version of you that screwed up. You have to take care of yourself.

You write yourself a love letter, you make a playlist, you make an activity list, resources of your favorite podcasts or your inspiration or your motivation. Because when your child falls off the bike, you pick them up and you say, oh, are you okay? I love you so much. I'm so proud of you for trying.

Let's put those training wheels back on the bike. What is it that you need to do better next time? Let me, let me guide you. You have to do that for yourself.

Like we literally make hangover kits so that when you wake up with a frickin hangover, there is a love letter waiting and instructions and guidelines. You know, like Alice in Wonderline, drink this and say this and listen to this and dance and call your coach. Thank you for showing up.

And it's okay because we're going to count the wins.

That's the other thing that's so important, is for you to look back and realize the thought did occur to me to stop drinking, but then I got busy and distracted. That's the win. That shows you that your mind is already changing, that the desire is actually there.

And even though you didn't act on it by thinking about it and counting it as a win, like, well, maybe if I pay a little more attention next time, I can do better next time. That feels good in your body, that triggers motivation. Whereas looking at yourself, what the hell is wrong with you? Why do you always screw up? Boom.

Your motivation shuts down. The habinula in the brain down, regulates your dopamine and serotonin. You cannot learn in a state of stress.

So if you're a person who keeps repeating the same stupid mistakes, the problem is that you're not learning from them.

ELLA: 00:24:39

I recently re released a clip on Fridays.

I released clips, Colleen, you know of previous shows and one of them recently it came up and we said that, you know, we're all just adults walking around with our unhealed inner child. Right.

What I just saw so clearly when you were saying that was if I spoke to last night me as though she were that child, I would treat myself completely differently. If I sound crazy, here's what I'm trying to say. Let's say, and again, this is not my story but it's utterly relatable.

Let's say I go out, I over drink, I do exactly the thing I've been trying not to do. So naturally I'm going to wake up the next day and try to use shame as a strategy to get me out of it.

Colleen: 00:25:26

Right?

ELLA: 00:25:26

That's what we do. But what if I realized that my inner child hadn't caught up yet and that I reverted back to old behaviors and I treat that child the next day.

I'm going to have compassion, I'm going to have grace, I'm going to have tenderness and I'm going to do things for her and be like you, you poor thing. Like, let's get you back together again. And then I can fully inhabit the rest of my day as an adult who did slightly better.

Colleen: 00:25:53

That's what we do.

We love the version of ourselves, the version of you who's been using alcohol to cope with your life, has been doing her God damn best to perform and prove her worth and show everybody, give everybody what they need. She has been doing her best. Can we love her for that? And understand these habits are habits and they can be changed.

Self directed neuroplasticity, they're not going to happen overnight. You are going to screw up because learning is best with failure. I mean, how do we learn what doesn't work? It's because we, we did it wrong.

But you cannot learn from what doesn't work if you're in a state of shame because you're the problem, you know, your strategy was the problem. You sent yourself into the same damn party with the same damn people with and expected yourself to do something different under pressure.

Like that doesn't work.

But at some point there will be an option for a different choice once you start noticing those positive thoughts and the positive invitation to do something different. But you have to love yourself and believe that you're capable of change and understand this is going to take a year.

Like it takes a year to rewire your brain.

ELLA: 00:27:00

Yeah. And I love the concept of neuroplasticity, if that's even the right way to express that. I.

Well, it was life changing to discover that we can change our brains and that it wasn't an addiction that was causing me to binge eat, per se. It was a habit that I could unlearn. Now, I, of course didn't unlearn it. I replaced it. That's how we fix things. We replace them with positives.

We don't just create vacuums. Like I said, you can't just cut it out and ditch it. You have to replace it with different behaviors, different thoughts, different actions.

You get it? But when we talk about self directed neuroplasticity, I don't think you mean solo efforts.

Can you distinguish between self directed neuroplasticity, which means we can change our brains and are you suggesting that we go about this alone?

Colleen: 00:27:49

No. What I mean by self directed neuroplasticity is you are choosing your change. It is not just we are always changing.

Every habit you've ever had is always changing. That's why you drink more than you used to. Your life changes constantly. Your brain is always changing.

Self directed neuroplasticity is you are directing where you wanna go by setting an attention, putting a bullseye on the tree, and then asking yourself, okay, what do I need to get there? And how do I stay on track to get there?

ELLA: 00:28:22

Who do I want to be? What actions does that person take? What does life like that look like? What choices do I make when I am that person? I hear you.

That's the target on the tree. The worst thing that could happen is that someone listens to this. They see Colleen's out.

Just amazing example of somebody who went from the pits of hell. Colleen, you went through it and now you're in a place where you drink sometimes if you feel like it. That is nirvana for some people.

And the worst thing that could happen is that I share this conversation with them and they think they can do it all by themselves. Colleen, what would you say to that woman right now if you could do.

Colleen: 00:29:04

It all by yourself? You would already have done. Is not a sign of weakness to ask for help. It's actually an intelligent sign of strength.

If you can't change your own tire, you call somebody. I have a path. This has been proven. I've got hundreds of women that have gone through it. I have gone through it.

When you want something, find somebody who has it and ask them how they got it.

ELLA: 00:29:26

Yeah, I mean, of course people quit cold turkey and they never touch a drink again.

Or so I do not mean that we can't change ourselves and just decide, I mean, how powerful is it to think that at any moment, on any day, you can just decide. I mean, that's an incredible power that we do have.

And at the same time, because we can hold that two things can be true at once here at the same time, there are women who are in it right now, and they would be so much better served by community and a lack of shame. And by speeding up this process rather than just trying to figure it out themselves.

Colleen: 00:30:05

The truth is, the root cause of alcohol use disorder is shame, not a love of being drunk. And shame can't heal in secret. And so finding even one person to hold that space for you is essential. You have to allow yourself to be seen.

It has to be safe to be you, all of you, even on your worst moments, you have to have that support. That is the best gift you could ever give yourself.

I do understand that it can be controversial, but people need to know that there is a third option and that most people end up going backwards after a period of sobriety. They end up falling off the wagon because they don't understand it's not about the alcohol. It's about your relationship with yourself.

ELLA: 00:30:52

This conversation challenges a way of thinking, and that is always disruptive. But my entire goal in life is to share toolkit after toolkit after toolkit. And then people.

People sort through it and pick up the tools that work for them. And I'm just grateful to you for sharing yet another tool so that people are aware. So thanks.

Colleen: 00:31:15

Yeah, well, thank you. It is wonderful and it is working.

I have so many women who have freed themselves with a drink in their hand and learned that the only rule you ever have to follow is your own intuition. You just have to learn how to hear and feel your own intuition. You do that. Drinking takes care of itself.

ELLA: 00:31:33

Okay, if you enjoyed today's show, please share it with someone you care about. And be sure to check out our new YouTube channel and head to onairella.com for today's show notes.

You can also learn about how to work with me there on airella.com and I would love to hear from you. So if you DM me on Instagram, I promise I will reply. P.S.

all the links you need for us to connect are right here in your podcast app in the description. Description for today's episode. Check them out. Thanks for listening and thanks for inspiring me. You are, quite simply awesome.